Posts by jonathan dough

7

JW Beliefs

by raxxxx in

83:18; isa.

1:15; rev.

6:9; rev.

jonathan dough

God's name is Jehovah

We don't know that. We know that it is YHWH, that's all, and that YHWH has other names, such as I AM.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#36

36

Looking for examples of how the Watchtower usurps Jesus position.

by Indian Larry in

i am doing a personal research project and looking for examples of how the watchtower usurps jesus postion.

scriptural or wt references would be great.

thanks!.

True believers are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by works; their perfection and justification cannot be achieved through their own individual efforts. On the otherhand, JWs (and others)during the 1000-year reign are "educated" to a state of perfection, which is impossible. It's quite astonishing and most people aren't aware of it.

Also, the organization functions as mediator between non-anointed so-called believers and the Almighty, when in fact only Christ is mediator between all believers, not just the 144,000, and the Almighty. JWs are very Catholic in this regard.

Information regarding their JWs' "education to perfection" salvation plan can be found here:

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-4.html#V

63

The Control is simply amazing

by outsmartthesystem in

at the kind advice of so many of you (and hassan) on this board....i ceased attempting to discuss doctrine/failures with my wife many months ago.

but unfortunately that does not prevent her from grilling me from time to time.

during one of our infamous "discussions" she said she was going to "investigate" this supposed "proof" that is out there regarding 587bc.

jonathan dough

And then sometimes I would add, "So it's not literal that the crowd is in heaven, but rather that the great crowd has a special place to Jehovah and therefore, metaphorically, before the throne."

That means the 144,000 aren't in heaven either, right? Same language, "before the throne."

I had hoped my arguments above had dispensed with that "metaphorical" talk; they so often resort to that when they lack another answer. JWs have a hard time with logic. You can prove them wrong ten different ways and they just revert back to spewing what the lawyers told them to spew. If there is no habitable post-armagedon earth, there is no place for the Great Crowd to reside on earth, and they can't be ruled over from heaven by the 144,000. Therefore they claim Peter was speaking in metaphor. Nonsense.

Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

The Great Crowd can't be on earth because it's destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)

Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

63

The Control is simply amazing

by outsmartthesystem in

at the kind advice of so many of you (and hassan) on this board....i ceased attempting to discuss doctrine/failures with my wife many months ago.

but unfortunately that does not prevent her from grilling me from time to time.

during one of our infamous "discussions" she said she was going to "investigate" this supposed "proof" that is out there regarding 587bc.

jonathan dough

The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings. [Home]

First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”

The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.

This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).

Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”

1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).

According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)

Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.

Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.

Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).

Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).

9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III

26

Checking Bibles for "God's Name"

by sabastious in

i had a ritual growing up every time we traveled to an assembly or convention.

in the hotel i would always take a look at the gideon bible's that were always stored in one of the drawers.

immediately upon finding it i would open up to psalms 83:18 to check if the bible had god's name within it.

jonathan dough

The Interlinear Bible in Hebrew, Greek and English, a literal translation by famed trinitarian Jay P. Green, uses "Jehovah" throughout the Old Testament, but not in the New Testament for obvious reasons.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/new_world_translation_bible_holy_scriptures.html

http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/united_nations_jehovahs_witnesses.html

102

Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

by sizemik in

a f/b friend just posted this link .

which makes some interesting claims .

so i thought i'd share.. some here at jwn have an extensive knowledge of early christianity .

jonathan dough

jd- prove it, ask your god to do something spectacular in the next 8 hours, go on now's your big chance.

I'll give you the same answer Christ gave Satan.

"Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

Matt. 4:7

63

The Control is simply amazing

by outsmartthesystem in

at the kind advice of so many of you (and hassan) on this board....i ceased attempting to discuss doctrine/failures with my wife many months ago.

but unfortunately that does not prevent her from grilling me from time to time.

during one of our infamous "discussions" she said she was going to "investigate" this supposed "proof" that is out there regarding 587bc.

jonathan dough

I can relate to that, entirely. Their minds have been taken over. THAT'S why they don't want their captives going on to higher education because it teaches one to think critically and see right through the nonsense. If you show them a cow, they will say it is a horse which they alone can see because they have been granted special powers of observation.

I didn't see any reference to the Bible in your attempts to prove her wrong. There's some information here you can use on her:

http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

Also, I think you're better off approaching it from 607, not 587. To a mathematical certainty, 607 cannot be proven under any circumstances. It's impossible. Once that is established in her mind, then maybe she will give 587 the benefit of the doubt more. Don't let her shift the burden to 587. The issue is 607.

And 607 is never right by default. Just because one can't prove 587, for the sake of argument, that doesn't make 607 correct.

What would be the best way to explain the 607 and 586/587 BC discrepency to my JW wife. Who is willing to see the evidence. I have Gentile Times Reconsidered but it is a very tough read. Are there any other ways to discuss this and break it down to something easier to understand?

They don't have 70 years, and the 70 years ended while the exiles were in Babylon, not when they returned to Palestine.

That Gentile Times information can be difficult to understand. Try changing her mind through Scripture. After all, they're the ones that claim the Bible is the final word, the ultimate authority. They don't have a leg to stand on. Tell her she needs proof of some kind. claiming it might be out there is not logical, and it is not proof.

Print this out and go through it with her word for word. It's a very solid argument.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/index.html

102

Jesus Christ was INVENTED?

by sizemik in

a f/b friend just posted this link .

which makes some interesting claims .

so i thought i'd share.. some here at jwn have an extensive knowledge of early christianity .

jonathan dough

"Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 2:22

Proof texts that Jesus was, and is, God.

8

The End of the World is Nigh - Not and Not Again. JWs make top 10

by MartynAndrew in

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2072678_2072683_2072697,00.html.

jonathan dough

"Their blood will be poured out like dust" Merry Christmas everyone.

God

For someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife, Judgment Day or Armageddon, you seem worried about it like you're afraid of what's going to happen to you.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_beliefs_summary.html

8

The End of the World is Nigh - Not and Not Again. JWs make top 10

by MartynAndrew in

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2072678_2072683_2072697,00.html.

jonathan dough

Patience. It'll get here soon enough because the earth is destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)

Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/